S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

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S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  F-35 Lightning II on Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:22 am

It would be great if S300 missile defense will be included in the mod.
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Snake on Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:38 am

It will probably be included in the campaign mode as a non-playable vehicle (or objective), but we aren't including any controllable S300 or other heavier units such as Mobile Scud Launchers or BM-30 Mobile Rocket Launchers.

This is due to the fact that vehicles such as the Russian 2S6 Tunguska Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun have a generally longer range and effectiveness than any standard ZH SAM defense (and can be upgraded with surface to air missiles for extra punch).

If we included the S300 we would need to include heavier western counterparts such as the MIM-104 Patriot, and that would dramatically diminish the tactical importance of fighters / AA-Armed Infantry and even general surface-to-air units.

Even so, the Europeans and Russians will have units which are effective to spot and engage US Stealth fighters/bombers.

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  James100 on Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:31 am

There's Also The S-400
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  James100 on Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:56 am

that's a shame I LUVVVVV The BM Family Laughing
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Snake on Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:27 pm

James100 wrote:There's Also The S-400

Yeah, in fact, the Russians are supposedly developing their even more sophisticated S-500 missile (it's an even more upgraded version of the S-400 Shocked ).

James100 wrote:that's a shame I LUVVVVV The BM Family Laughing

Yeah, we discussed it a lot, but we decided to use more "mobile" and less bulkier multiple rocket launchers (even so, the current ones, the M270A1 and the TOS-1 are extremely destructive and effective).

There will be various points which will separate all MRL's (Multiple Rocket Launchers), the M270 will have it's own specific and special properties and the TOS-1 will have it's own "specs" as well.

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Pyrospastiac on Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:40 am

at least one of the campaign missions has to make a BM 30 cameo. just sort of a 'we're getting pwnzord! kill sum BMs!!! Twisted Evil ' kind of objective.
or at least some BM-21s. im amazed at how old those things are without being upgraded much. there's plenty of old equiptment in this mod and in real life being used it's just that they all get retrofited. the BM-21 seems unchanged for decades!
they'd make a good mission objective.
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Snake on Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:35 pm

Pyrospastiac wrote:at least one of the campaign missions has to make a BM 30 cameo. just sort of a 'we're getting pwnzord! kill sum BMs!!! Twisted Evil ' kind of objective.

Oh yeah!!! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

The same goes to the sneaky Mobile Scud Launchers, the deadly Topol-M's and possibly some members of the S-300 "family" (great mission objectives for either defense or attack depending on the side of the campaign).

Pyrospastiac wrote:or at least some BM-21s. im amazed at how old those things are without being upgraded much. there's plenty of old equiptment in this mod and in real life being used it's just that they all get retrofited. the BM-21 seems unchanged for decades!
they'd make a good mission objective.

I think that BM-21's might appear as combat-ready units with some Rebel factions alongise many other Cold-War sweetness lol! (Rebel / Militia / Indigenous Factions aren't obviously armed to the same standards as the Main Factions, but they can still provide some lighter support if helped).

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  F-35 Lightning II on Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:51 pm

If S-300 or S-400 will be put in the game, it should be block by countermeasures of an aircraft. In the ROTR mod they used the S-400, it needs to be deployed before it can release an anti-aircraft missile...low speed mobility..but the bug is it is not block by countermeasure. any anti-aircraft missile can be block by countermeasure depending how many missiles are being release to target aircraft...
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Snake on Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:16 am

Our aircraft will release countermeasures (such as flares) when a missile is locking on it, from there on there's a probability that the missile will hit or miss (random logic).



I even suggested the inclusion of a special "Aircraft Countermeasure System" which would place the control of countermeasures on the player (the player had 3 main "types" of countermeasures, each of'em would be effective against a specific kind of missile), but we eventually put the idea to a halt because of coding complications.

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Pyrospastiac on Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:02 am

and micromanegment problems.
that'd be so anoying
"oh crap a missiles gonna hit my plane!!! ...ok, let's see... flares? no. chaff? nah. evasive manouveres? eh, maybe. ...ah dammit! my plane died ages ago!"
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Snake on Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:49 am

lol! Too true, in fact, the idea that our infantry should now move in squads rather than single units, is because of micromanagement.

The map zoom is gonna be taken to it's limits (maximum height) and controlling a single soldier from such a distance is kind of a laughable idea.

Squads (along with many ground units) will have overhead icons so the player can diferency'em better from a longer zoom.


About the "Aircraft Countermeasure System" in this case there would be basically 3 different kinds of countermeasures which would be automatically activated once a missile was launched, the evasion effectiveness would be greater if the player had the "right" countermeasure selected (the plane would basically use the selected countermeasure and if that one matched the attacking missile, the evasion ratio would be much higher).

For example, let's say a heat seeking missile was fired against my plane, if it had flares as it's selected countermeasure, the evasion ratio would be much larger than if ECMs (Electric Countermeasure) were equipped.

Basically:

Missile Type / Class
Countermeasure
Infrared Homing Missiles ("Heat-Seeking Missiles")
Flares
Semi-Active Radar Homing
Electronic Countermeasures (ECMs)
Active Radar Homing
Chaff

Basically this was an idea to keep all the standard aerial countermeasures ingame, however it would be very complex to include and so it's halted at this point.

The Flares were the ones which were equipped by default (since heat seeking missiles are the most standard AA missiles in game).

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Pyrospastiac on Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:53 pm

maybe instead of the player making the selection out of all available options, the player buys the different countermeasures, then the pilot's effectiveness in using them depends on their promotion level (and the randomizer of course Razz ). this way players dont have to micromanage with countermeasures, but a rookie pilot would have a very small chance of using the right one compared to a veteran pilot.
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Jarhead on Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:24 am

Personally I love the idea of making aircraft more interactive, but if there are alot of planes I can see how it could get crazy real fast. Snake I like your idea, and pyro I like yours. The only suggestion I have is if planes are going to need micro managed it would be nice to have the [Ctrl+#] designation, when the # is double tapped to actually follow the plane. I would also say it would be nice to have the aircraft towards the bottom edge of the screen to allow for a line of sight when approaching a target. The only problem I see is when you are on the top of a map heading "south". Inverting the map for players on the top of the screen might fix the problem but I am not sure you can do that. Honestly I like both of your ideas. One is definetly more creative then the other, but it does need more micro management. I think with the right set up it could work fine.
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Snake on Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:32 pm

Pyrospastiac wrote:maybe instead of the player making the selection out of all available options, the player buys the different countermeasures, then the pilot's effectiveness in using them depends on their promotion level (and the randomizer of course Razz ). this way players dont have to micromanage with countermeasures, but a rookie pilot would have a very small chance of using the right one compared to a veteran pilot.

Great idea, the main prob would be to establish a connection between the promotion level and kind of countermeasures (we'll have to look into it once we're on the air combat coding stage).

One of the main things that made the countermeasure logic come to a halt was the fact that some missiles (more particularly the Semi-Active Radar Homing missiles won't be very common, if included in the mod at all, thus the urgency of having more countermeasures became less important).

Jarhead wrote:Personally I love the idea of making aircraft more interactive, but if there are alot of planes I can see how it could get crazy real fast. Snake I like your idea, and pyro I like yours. The only suggestion I have is if planes are going to need micro managed it would be nice to have the [Ctrl+#] designation, when the # is double tapped to actually follow the plane. I would also say it would be nice to have the aircraft towards the bottom edge of the screen to allow for a line of sight when approaching a target. The only problem I see is when you are on the top of a map heading "south". Inverting the map for players on the top of the screen might fix the problem but I am not sure you can do that. Honestly I like both of your ideas. One is definetly more creative then the other, but it does need more micro management. I think with the right set up it could work fine.

I would also love to have a button which could follow the plane (Act of War, the game we talked about in the Off Topic section had this feature), once the team starts to focus on air combat and it's coding, we'll look for a way to include new features without the need of adding more "weight" to the controlling player.

We want units to behave "automatically" though still possible to being manually controlled, let's take the A-10 for example.

Once we order it to attack an enemy tank, it'll automatically try to launch a missile and fire it's main cannon, however, the player is able to automatically choose which weapon should be fired independently (like manually selecting the cannon or missiles).

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Tusker2Zero on Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:37 pm

Well, I think that a line has potentially been crossed here. So, let me turn on the rant switch and get to bitchin and complaning for a bit.

While I like the idea of stuffing as much user controllable, realistic technology, on an aircraft, ships, and ground units, there comes a point where too much micromanagement comes into play, and I think the mod is getting close too, if not already over that limit (in theory, of course, since the mods not even been built yet).

From what I'm hearing from this, and other threads, countermeasures may now become the latest in the list of possible things that are going to have to be managed on a per unit basis during the game. You've got to worry about conserving fuel & ammo per unit until you get resupplied (which I'm assuming won't be automatic). Buying & selecting weapons per unit (some units). And now the possibility of worrying about countermeasures on a per unit basis (and god forbid I mention the possibility of having to resupply countermeasures?). With units potentially spread all over the map on top of all of that, it's really starting to sound like a micro-management nightmare.

Now, guys I really like realism and all, that's why I'm here drooling over this mod even before she's even been built. But, unless Snake is willing to fly up here to the United States from Portugal and serve as my logistical officer during the game, the game isn't going to be much of a game at all, but more like real work. I mean even army generals have entire staffs and departments dedicated to work on logistical issues like these. If your asking me do it alone, then I want an easy button installed in the mod:



Remember, Generals/Zero hour is a game. It doesn't have to be a brain frakk'n numbing total uber simulation, of epic proportions here. It just has to be fun. So, please, go a bit easier on the micromanagement thing here. I think we've potentially have more enough to manage during the game. Apply a bit of the KISS theory here. Keep It Simple Stupid.

Please wake up. Come back to the light and away from uber-micromanagement. It's a game.

That's my two cents worth.

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Snake on Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:07 pm

Tusker2Zero wrote:Well, I think that a line has potentially been crossed here. So, let me turn on the rant switch and get to bitchin and complaning for a bit.

While I like the idea of stuffing as much user controllable, realistic technology, on an aircraft, ships, and ground units, there comes a point where too much micromanagement comes into play, and I think the mod is getting close too, if not already over that limit (in theory, of course, since the mods not even been built yet).

From what I'm hearing from this, and other threads, countermeasures may now become the latest in the list of possible things that are going to have to be managed on a per unit basis during the game. You've got to worry about conserving fuel & ammo per unit until you get resupplied (which I'm assuming won't be automatic). Buying & selecting weapons per unit (some units). And now the possibility of worrying about countermeasures on a per unit basis (and god forbid I mention the possibility of having to resupply countermeasures?). With units potentially spread all over the map on top of all of that, it's really starting to sound like a micro-management nightmare.

Now, guys I really like realism and all, that's why I'm here drooling over this mod even before she's even been built. But, unless Snake is willing to fly up here to the United States from Portugal and serve as my logistical officer during the game, the game isn't going to be much of a game at all, but more like real work. I mean even army generals have entire staffs and departments dedicated to work on logistical issues like these. If your asking me do it alone, then I want an easy button installed in the mod:



Remember, Generals/Zero hour is a game. It doesn't have to be a brain frakk'n numbing total uber simulation, of epic proportions here. It just has to be fun. So, please, go a bit easier on the micromanagement thing here. I think we've potentially have more enough to manage during the game. Apply a bit of the KISS theory here. Keep It Simple Stupid.

Please wake up. Come back to the light and away from uber-micromanagement. It's a game.

That's my two cents worth.

lol! To tell you the truth, I suppose that the countermeasure system won't be included (at least right now, standard countermeasures will automatically deploy Flares and possibly chaff).

However, micromanagement will be an important part of the strategy, players objectives won't be to amass tanks and other vehicles but rather use their specific advantages to better deal with the enemy (this means that the player will or may want to manually select a special tank shell to better deal with infantry and another kind of shell to deal with enemy tanks.

The squad system, for example, was a way to deal with Infantry Micromanagement (since controlling a single soldier on such a large zoom span would be complicated (players would need to zoom in in order to micromanage infantry squads).

The fuel & ammo logic is just a theory (if it puts too much pressure on the player, then we won't include it, in fact, if it is in, it would be included on later versions, that is why I was so redundant in even mentioning this system at first, but since it was spoken, I had to bring it up, I personally find it to be extremely difficult to generalize such a system on other units other than aircraft so I have some doubts it'll be 100% included like it was theorized).

Our objective won't be to mass units but use their skills to the fullest extent, some vehicles like Tanks will have many possible upgrades (which the player can manually choose), but our objective isn't to make the player just buy upgrades so it becomes an "ultimate" unit, on the contrary, this will be done to keep several units along the battle (to increase it's survival and to keep it in top shape during the technologically advancing in game battlefield, that is why some upgrades will be only available upon being unlocked).

This goes to the Naval Mode as well, most ships will be quite autonomous (using countermeasures automatically, attacking when possible, etc.) we may need to improvise on some coding-problematic units like the Amphibious Assault Ships with simpler systems.

Just as when I talked about with the A-10 case, one of goals is to try to make units as automatic as possible (as long as coding allows us) and make them react automatically, however, we wish to give the player the chance to manually control them as well, kinda hard to explain (it is something which has to be shown in game).

Don't be alarmed with this kind of micromanagement though (may sound big in theory sometimes but it's quite simple ingame), if we include it, it's to make things as realistic AND fun as possible Cool (just like the randomizer, at first it sounded big in theory and now it's the most basic brand new logic we managed to include).

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Tusker2Zero on Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:04 am

Sounds good. I realize there's going to be some micromanagement that will occur in the game and all, but I was just concerned about it going overboard.

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Pyrospastiac on Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:50 am

I'm not a big fan of Uber micromanegment either. But i think i've figured out why we (the community) are all expecting mass micromanegment...
we've all played ZH and we all know it's lack of HOTKEYS!!! RTSs like Warcraft 3 and World in conflict use hotkeys (i'm not sayin ZH doesnt) and make them very clear! for example, the smoke button in all ZH mods would have a picture of some smoke, simple enough, but you'd have to mouse wheel over it to get the hotkey. WIC on the other hand, has the picture of the smoke, and then the hotkey letter in the corner of the image!!!

i think right from the beginning ZH and all it's mods made micromanagment more difficult than it needs to be. i'm not asking you to put in hotkeys, im asking you to put in VERY easily identifiable hotkeys so you can shortcut the action you want straight away!
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Marc15yo [Admin] on Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:26 am

Ok, Let me fill you guys in on the micro-management issue.

I personally hate micro-managing. it fu.cking sucks. BUT not including at least some micro managing would be darn stupid. no joke. when u play the original cnc you see how hard it is to keep your units from dying. they basically just line up in an ordered line out of the factory and die one at a time. once they die, simply build more right? NO! we want realism on a fun level of course.

i know what you guys mean, and i say don't worry. Let's take the abrams for example. it's coded and working perfectly in game (just so you know). it will engage targets on it's own. it will aim at targets and fire WHILE moving. once in battle and once it has a locked target it can still be moved to other places without losing lock. By default it will use it's Sabot shell at enemy tanks, then it will use it's coax at infantry. the commander's mg will only engage oncoming infantry without the need of you even touching it. Now you can send ur abrams by default into the battlefield. it's 50/50 chance of survival. BUT by Changing it's weapon/targeting/ and "Mood" to adjust to the current environment chances of survival increase. if you let the tank engage on it's own it will stop and face it's enemy in a Death match. by adding a tiny bit of micromanaging you can increase the chance of a positive outcome of the encounter. maybe smoke shell the place to blind ur tank's enemy, maybe make the tank flank to the right to make it's enemy miss.... possibilities are endless. Of course we could make the Abrams deploy smoke all on it's own, but what good would that be if it deploys it at the wrong time?

it's at those moments that your "micromanagement" or input will be required.
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Pyrospastiac on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:09 am

but what's the situation on hotkeys at the moment anyway?
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Marc15yo [Admin] on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:42 am

hotkeys, we never really thought of customizing them for our own use. we were planning on sticking with the default cnc ones. we just never thought about them really.
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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Tusker2Zero on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:32 pm

If it's possible, If I could get, in addition to the customizable Ctrl 0-9 that is in the game now, another set of customizable hot keys. Lets say Ctrl F1-F12, for example, I'd be very greatful.

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Re: S300 for Russian Mobile air defense

Post  Snake on Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:32 pm

We can hopefully make a great use of the hotkeys, though we aren't too familiar with hotkey mods there's gotta be a way Twisted Evil (some hotkeys would be quite useful, like pressing H to select the AWACS for instance).

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