what kind of maps?

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  James100 on Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:46 am

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Jarhead on Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:41 am

It would be interesting to see the interaction between units and things like creeks or rivers, like for instance, a regular infantry unit may be able to cross a creek, but not a river. With a snorkel upgrade for your humvee you may make it across a river, maybe, you may also lose it and everybody in it. I think there is a lot of room for improvement from Zero Hour with the way the environment interacts with units.
Especially with natural boundaries and who can cross them.
Like Rangers should be able to climb mountains for Christ sake. SEALs swim like fish, so if the only bridge goes out, you better figure out how to get to the enemy, and what units to use to get there.
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Tusker2Zero on Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:52 pm

Jarhead wrote:It would be interesting to see the interaction between units and things like creeks or rivers, like for instance, a regular infantry unit may be able to cross a creek, but not a river. With a snorkel upgrade for your humvee you may make it across a river, maybe, you may also lose it and everybody in it. ...

From: Little-Known Facts About Hummers
Did You Know?... From Jim Walczak, for About.com
http://4wheeldrive.about.com/od/highlightshummer/a/hummerhistory_4.htm

"While military Humvees have a snorkel kit extending the exhaust and air intake to roof level, making it possible to operate in 60 inches of water, Civilian Hummers cannot use the snorkel kit because the dash, fuses, alternator, power steering cap, transmission controller, radio, and engine controller are not waterproof."

If this is correct, a river or creek five foot deep would be the most depth at which you could safely cross without some sort of flotation kit, which I've read some Bradley APC's have. But, I don't know if there is any float kits for hummers.

Jarhead wrote:Like Rangers should be able to climb mountains for Christ sake. SEALs swim like fish, so if the only bridge goes out, you better figure out how to get to the enemy, and what units to use to get there.

Personally, I think they blew it when they referred to regular infantry as rangers, when obviously they are not. For game purposes, the "regular infantry" should either not have the ability to climb and swim, or have a very slow climb swim rate compared to what specially trained forces can do such as Rangers, SEALS, Marines, etc..., in my opinion.

Just a couple of examples of specially trained forces for a particular task:

SEAL units should be specialized for swimming. (which will happen in the mod if things work out)

A specialized Army mountaineering division such as the 10th Mountaineering Division for climbing.

"The 10th Mountain Division trained at Camp Hale, Colorado, where volunteers learned rock climbing, endurance through long distance marches and cross country ski trips, down hill skiing, winter/mountain survival techniques, and combat throughout the winter of 1943-1944. In June 1944, the Division transferred to Camp Swift, Texas, for additional training until the division was deployed to Italy in January 1945." This Division is still in existence today.

To summarize here. If it can be coded in this way, different infantry types should have different climb and swim rates (speeds) based on their particular force specialty and training. In addition, bonus climb/swim rates should be granted to infantry units based on unit promotion as well.

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Jarhead on Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:11 pm

I think it would set rangers apart to have regular soldiers not be able to climb big mountains or just mountains period, and furthermore SEALs are trained in Sea Air and Land, so it would seem to me they would be the truly most elite infantry for the U.S.. Pop out of the ocean, then climb a mountain. Be dropped out of an unseen aircraft crusin at high altitude, sneak into the water and place a charge on the enemy ships propeller shaft, immobilizing it. SEALs have all the goodies, and so should be either higher on the Tech Tree, or really expensive.
In real life they say a quarter million is spent on a single SEAL to train and equip etc. to become battle ready.
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Snake on Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:55 pm

Tusker2Zero wrote:(...) which I've read some Bradley APC's have. But, I don't know if there is any float kits for hummers.

Kinda off topic, but here's a photo of an amphibious variant of the Bradley (M2A0):



Tusker2Zero wrote:
Jarhead wrote:Like Rangers should be able to climb mountains for Christ sake. SEALs swim like fish, so if the only bridge goes out, you better figure out how to get to the enemy, and what units to use to get there.

Personally, I think they blew it when they referred to regular infantry as rangers, when obviously they are not. For game purposes, the "regular infantry" should either not have the ability to climb and swim, or have a very slow climb swim rate compared to what specially trained forces can do such as Rangers, SEALS, Marines, etc..., in my opinion.

Absolutely, I was shocked by the way they depicted Rangers in the game (weak, basic infantry units), which is a laughable assumption of such a prestigious and elite unit.

Jarhead wrote:I think it would set rangers apart to have regular soldiers not be able to climb big mountains or just mountains period, and furthermore SEALs are trained in Sea Air and Land, so it would seem to me they would be the truly most elite infantry for the U.S.. Pop out of the ocean, then climb a mountain. Be dropped out of an unseen aircraft crusin at high altitude, sneak into the water and place a charge on the enemy ships propeller shaft, immobilizing it. SEALs have all the goodies, and so should be either higher on the Tech Tree, or really expensive.
In real life they say a quarter million is spent on a single SEAL to train and equip etc. to become battle ready.

Yeah, in my opinion I'd say we should limit special abilities for special units only (so they have these particular advantages in terms of movement).

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Jarhead on Sun May 03, 2009 9:51 pm

It would be nice to have several "layers" of each map, for example;
Underwater: Subs of coarse
Surface Vessels: Aircraft/Cruisers/Frigates etc.
Land units: Too many to list
Mountainous Terrain: Extreme terrain tracked vehicles
Low altitude: A-10's, helicopters
Mid altitude: AC-130 scores of fighters and bombers
High altitude: U-2, (SR-71 Blackbird) [the SR-71 is retired of course} some kind of high altitude spy planes. Kind of obsolete once satellites come in to play, but none the less astetically pleasing
Space: Satellites

Some of those could be condensed, especially the real high altitude, spy plane realm.

Being able to choose which vehicle you want to use for a command vehicle would be really nice also. So that the operating environments of 2 opponents command vehicles could be of totally different natures.
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Snake on Mon May 04, 2009 1:40 am

Jarhead wrote:It would be nice to have several "layers" of each map, for example;
Underwater: Subs of coarse
Surface Vessels: Aircraft/Cruisers/Frigates etc.
Land units: Too many to list
Mountainous Terrain: Extreme terrain tracked vehicles
Low altitude: A-10's, helicopters
Mid altitude: AC-130 scores of fighters and bombers
High altitude: U-2, (SR-71 Blackbird) [the SR-71 is retired of course} some kind of high altitude spy planes. Kind of obsolete once satellites come in to play, but none the less astetically pleasing
Space: Satellites

Some of those could be condensed, especially the real high altitude, spy plane realm.

In a sense we can consider that the standard TAOW maps already contain various layers (certain layers were already changed, like higher flying aircraft for instance), in this case though, some units will fly lower than others (helicopters or CAS aircraft), while others like the F-22A are more focused on aerial combat so those'll fly higher.

It's gonna be quite interesting to watch some units like the Tunguska or Linebacker (Mobile AA) lighting the sky with the cannons and missiles (specially since there are not sure hits nor the same systematic damage anymore).

Being able to choose which vehicle you want to use for a command vehicle would be really nice also. So that the operating environments of 2 opponents command vehicles could be of totally different natures.

That definitely depends on the mission type (generally, for the "standard" maps, players will start with a ground command vehicle), but let's assume a mapper creates an aerial map (special mission), then it's very possible to do so (give the player the opportunity to call in a ground command vehicle or an AWACS for example).

Map types and variety are something very important we always take in consideration when adding new vehicles and logics.

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Jarhead on Tue May 05, 2009 2:27 am

Talking about mission types, there have been alot of piracy in the news.
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Snake on Tue May 05, 2009 5:26 am

Definitely, in fact, I'd say it would be quite interesting to have a special Map Pack with special missions based around fighting pirates (probably on both the naval and standard game modes).

Of course that fighting pirates on The Art of War means dropping cluster bombs and Tomahawks Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  AgustaBE on Tue May 05, 2009 10:59 am

Snake wrote:Definitely, in fact, I'd say it would be quite interesting to have a special Map Pack with special missions based around fighting pirates (probably on both the naval and standard game modes).

Of course that fighting pirates on The Art of War means dropping cluster bombs and Tomahawks Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

hehe that's what i'm talking about
(to add a few maps where you only need to spam heavy weapons Thumbs Up! )

greetz

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Jarhead on Tue May 05, 2009 6:46 pm

I was thinking something like Delta. They are the premire hostage "negotiators", even though I think the SEALs have been the main responders to recent piracy deal off the coast of Somalia. I think showcasing the flashbang with Delta type soldiers might be cool, then see what else can be done to specialize the unit to be adapted to breach buildings etc. But like I said before, I don't write code and things of that nature, but as an idea messing with how much damage a building might sustain and ways to take it over, like helicopter repeling/other methods of taking over buildings/maybe even boats. Twisted Evil

That's just an idea. As far as TAOW goes, I haven't been following the mod as long as many and I'm starvin for just alittle taste of whats cookin in TAOW's kitchen. It would be a great idea as far as getting the word out about the mod, as well as just plain grabbing peoples attention. Actions always speak louder than words, and if the mod is half as good as I'm picturing people won't have a choice but to listen.
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Snake on Wed May 06, 2009 8:47 pm

Jarhead wrote:I was thinking something like Delta. They are the premire hostage "negotiators", even though I think the SEALs have been the main responders to recent piracy deal off the coast of Somalia. I think showcasing the flashbang with Delta type soldiers might be cool, then see what else can be done to specialize the unit to be adapted to breach buildings etc. But like I said before, I don't write code and things of that nature, but as an idea messing with how much damage a building might sustain and ways to take it over, like helicopter repeling/other methods of taking over buildings/maybe even boats. Twisted Evil

Indeed, hostages (and hostage rescue operations) may be a sort of a sub variant of the POW system (in that case the flashbangs and animations are already included so it would make our job easier).

Speaking of fast roping, Marc started to work on some brand new sweet animations.

Jarhead wrote:That's just an idea. As far as TAOW goes, I haven't been following the mod as long as many and I'm starvin for just alittle taste of whats cookin in TAOW's kitchen. It would be a great idea as far as getting the word out about the mod, as well as just plain grabbing peoples attention. Actions always speak louder than words, and if the mod is half as good as I'm picturing people won't have a choice but to listen.

sunny Thanks mate Thumbs Up!

That's too true, the actions speak (and will speak) louder than words Rock on!

I hope to show some of the new advancements soon enough.

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Jarhead on Fri May 08, 2009 2:24 am

so what kind of ideas have been getting thrown around for maps?
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Snake on Fri May 08, 2009 10:10 am

Something really, Really BIG Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil, these new map types are still highly experimental so I'm afraid we cannot currently reveal them but we'll definitely include'em in the next Mega Update (Third Mega Update).

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Jarhead on Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:40 am

What about using tunnel networks as simply existing on map caves. Vary the number of units allowed with different sized caves so as to let only infantry, or small vehicles while precluding larger ones which will only fit in larger "cave" structures. Not that it would be something you will find on every map, but the logic is already there. Might make an interesting feature.
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Snake on Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:46 am

It sounds like a very interesting idea sunny , specially when associated with rebel-based maps (like, let's suppose a map based on mountainous regions of Afghanistan).

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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Jarhead on Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:59 pm

Exactly. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
I'm playing around with world builder trying to make some interesting "topographics" for infantry to kinda perch on.
I was wondering, the higher up you go to where you are looking down on the battlefield, does your range increase?
And how do you tell if a terrain feature is impassable to say the Col. Burton's mountain locomotors?
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Marc15yo [Admin] on Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:06 am

well it's another problem cnc seems to have. unit view ranges are not affected by altitude. same goes for the shroud clearing range

about burton's locomotor, you might want to check his locomotor settings, i think you might find some info on the impssable areas that he can cross.

in my opinion for creating realistic maps, you might want to leave out extremely steep mountains. your better off having a flatter area. not completeley flat because that looks un-realistic.
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Jarhead on Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:48 am

Could there be a way to apply a range bonus to troops in taller buildings maybe?

It seems to me that the various units in the game are only half the game. How interactive the environment is is where I think ZH could really use improvement. [Example] An engineer or a special forces soldier runs across the map to a hydro dam. When one or other reaches the dam, they are given the option to control the water level of the board. Or just blow it up and flood everything. Infiltrate a nuclear plant, blow it up for a nice effect that will kill anything that wanders into that area mistakenly. Or "harvest" some Uranium to be "processed" and "weaponized." Maybe gain depleted uranium tipped ammo. Put a sniper on a nice perch. Position infantry (like rangers/airborne rangers, SEALs, etc.) on a plateau, giving them better range than infantry on the ground to force the opposition to pursue other techniques then just sending infantry into an inferior position.
Ski's and track upgrades for appropriate units. There are so many ways the environment could be used to obtain advantages or disadvantages.

A weather system is a whole nother animal, but could add a whole new demension to the game.
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Re: what kind of maps?

Post  Snake on Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:47 am

Jarhead wrote:It seems to me that the various units in the game are only half the game. How interactive the environment is is where I think ZH could really use improvement.

That's too true, if you ask me on a thing which ZH could use some extra expansion, then it would be an extra interaction and more complex use of the environment.

Unfortunately, for the reasons that Marc named in the previous posts, there are many aspects which won't be able to be changed, unfortunately because those are hard coded aspects of the game.

However we do want to improvise on many aspects, an example is to hopefully create a more complex and solid building garrison logic. We could say there will be various types of garrison logics in game.

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Re: what kind of maps?

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