Infantry man's best friend

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Infantry man's best friend

Post  ses juan on Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:37 pm

Please post what you think or what would be the best assualt rifle, or pdw would be for the comon infantry man.
This is my 2 cents.

Today most combat is fought in urban areas, mostly tight corners and small areas. Occasionally the fight does go further while on the streets but nothing extreme. Also, people are more determined, and wearing body armour making them harder to knock down. This makes the M16, and M4 series obsolete. They hold only part of the key to my idea, good at penetrating body armor but not a man stopper, and it is effective up to about 600m. The thing is, why focus on such a long range when you engage at where you can see the whites of your enemy's eyes(so something like 300m). The AK holds another part; reliablity, and it a real man stopper. Although, it is not as accurate and it is quite heavy so it is not ideal for urban combat. Even though there are different types of AK's, i've come up with my own alternative.
I dont know what to call it, what it should look like, or even what is needed to build it. All I know is this...
It needs to be effective and accurate up to 300m
It needs to be reliable. No breaking down in the middle of combat.
It needs to be simple, for easy disassemble.
It needs to be light.
It needs to be compact, with smooth lines so it doesnt get caught on equipment or accidentially smack the barrel off of walls or a buddy.
It needs to be ergonomical so it has a nice feel in the users hands.
It needs to have a good rate of fire but nothing that can't be controlled.
It needs to be ambidextrous for lefty user(like myself).
And last but most important, I need to know that the bullet will always penetrate body armour but can still be a real man stopper (though i believe this has been achieved by the 6.8mm round).

There is not a gun that i have seen that meets those ideals... well my ideals if i were in comabt today.
The battle field is always changing and improving. We need something simple enough to take on all the diverse weapons our enemy's are using.

Like i said, please post what you think is the best assualt rifle, or pdw would be for the comon infantry man.
avatar
ses juan
Corporal
Corporal

Posts : 11
Join date : 2009-05-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  Snake on Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:10 pm

In a sense, the "best assault rifle" is a matter of perspective (it's highly debatable).

There's also a lot of factors which come into play to determine a weapon's effectiveness (everything from size and weight restrictions to logistical factors).

NATO and specially the US Military has been researching for ways to create very balanced light weapons for many decades, a perfect example was the OICW program:

The history of the one of the most ambitious projects in the history of small arms, known as the OICW, or the Objective Individual Combat Weapon, began late in the 1986, when the US Army Infantry School at Ft. Benning published a military paper, named "Small Arms System 2000" (SAS-2000). Despite the current trends towards the caseless and flechette ammunition and appropriate weapons, researched and developed under the ACR program (see HK G11 and Steyr ACR entries for some details), this paper stated that the conventional small arms already reached its technological peak, and the only way to increase the hit probability in the small arms is to introduce a weapon that will fire explosive and fragmentation warheads, combined with the smart fusing and sighting / aiming technologies. While the most small arms research during the late 1980s in the USA was conducted under the ACR program, the idea first developed in the SAS-2000 was supported by another US military paper, published in 1989 by the US Army TRADOC (Training & Doctrine) center. This paper, called "The Small Arms Master Plan" (SAMP), requested for a family of infantry "Objective" weapons, namely the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW), Objective Personal Defense Weapon (OPDW), and the Objective Crew Served Weapon (OCSW). The SAMP stated that such weapons must utilize the latest developments in computers and visual technologies, as well as in the small arms, and combine both high explosive warheads and traditional bullets fire capabilities in a single weapon, that should be fielded circa 2000. Of cause, the timelines and most of the weight and cost requirements set in this paper looked unrealistic from the start, but the development of the Objective weapons began in the early 1990s.

Source:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm




The OICW program developed some quite interesting prototypes, but the program was eventually canceled since it wasn't producing the weapons which were initially expected and due to increasing cost requirements.



Interestingly enough, South Korea looks like will start to field their own OICW-based airburst weapon, the Daewoo K11 (aka the "Korean New Rifle") to it's troops during this and the next year (since the weapon is expensive it's to be carefully distributed among the troops, usually two grenadiers per squad for support purposes):



The weapon weights 6.1 kg's, while empty pale

It's integrated assault rifle - the 'Kinetic Energy Module' can hold twenty or thirty 5.56x45mm NATO rounds per magazine while it's airburst module - the HE Module - can hold six 20x85mm rounds.




If I were to choose my rifle, I would definitely pick the G36, an exceptional assault rifle and the "successor" of the G3.

_________________
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -- George Patton
avatar
Snake
General of the Army [Administrator]
General of the Army [Administrator]

Posts : 5707
Join date : 2008-02-11
Location : Portugal

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  ses juan on Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:23 am

I would not want the OICW in combat. It may have all i need but it is probably heavy. And, when it jams, it looks like its gona be a b@#$h to take apart. like i said, it needs to be simple enough to take on our enemy's diversity of weapons. That doesn't look all that simple. with my imaginary gun, there can be a rail system for it to be adabted to the changing battle field.

this paper stated that the conventional small arms already reached its technological peak, and the only way to increase the hit probability in the small arms is to introduce a weapon that will fire explosive and fragmentation warheads.
Hence the M203 and XM302. I will admit, fusing the sights is a good idea, and the airburst is cool too.

The SAMP stated that such weapons must utilize the latest developments in computers and visual technologies.
Making it obsolete today. The computer is ALWAYS evolving you can never get the best technology. We would see more and more military projects open today to find the best technology for this weapon.

snake wrote:If I were to choose my rifle, I would definitely pick the G36, an exceptional assault rifle and the "successor" of the G3.
That would make sence. It is fielded by the German military who strive for the best weapons they can make.
avatar
ses juan
Corporal
Corporal

Posts : 11
Join date : 2009-05-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  James100 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:44 am

The OICW Was Supposed To Be An All In One Rifle... But It Was Too Bulky And Huge! If They Don't Reconsider To Bottle It Up And Lighten It A Bit, It Will Never Ever Have A Chance

The SAMP stated that such weapons must utilize the latest developments in computers and visual technologies.
Computer Tech Is Being Combined With Everything lately

snake wrote:If I were to choose my rifle, I would definitely pick the G36, an exceptional assault rifle and the "successor" of the G3.
Today's Top Rifles Are:
_G36 ; For Now It's the Best Of The Best, Being Reliable, Balanced, Cost-Friendly And Comes With Tons Of variants
_XM8 In The Best Ones Has Same Characteristics Of The G36 In Better Aspects (It Was Based On It)
_The AK Family Were Extremely Reliable And Balanced Weapons


And The XM8 Has Reentered It's Being Reconfigured To Perfect It
avatar
James100
General [Moderator]
General [Moderator]

Posts : 1294
Join date : 2008-11-09
Age : 37

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  Snake on Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:49 pm

James100 wrote:
ses juan wrote:I would not want the OICW in combat. It may have all i need but it is probably heavy. And, when it jams, it looks like its gona be a b@#$h to take apart. like i said, it needs to be simple enough to take on our enemy's diversity of weapons. That doesn't look all that simple. with my imaginary gun, there can be a rail system for it to be adabted to the changing battle field.

The OICW Was Supposed To Be An All In One Rifle... But It Was Too Bulky And Huge! If They Don't Reconsider To Bottle It Up And Lighten It A Bit, It Will Never Ever Have A Chance

Indeed, the weight and size were primary concerns (some of the prototypes were quite bulky and less than ideal for close range encounters, the kind of which is recurring in modern scenarios).
Some of the more compact prototypes, however, looked quite interesting and promising:





One interesting weapon program which I should mention is the Modular Rifle - Caseless (MR-C), a conceptual assault rifle program to create a bullpup mock-up assault rifle which would use caseless ammo (similar to the HK G11).



The aim of programs such as the MR-C is to create a next generation rifle to equip the US Military's Future Force Warriors (FFW's).

ses juan wrote:
The SAMP stated that such weapons must utilize the latest developments in computers and visual technologies.
Making it obsolete today. The computer is ALWAYS evolving you can never get the best technology. We would see more and more military projects open today to find the best technology for this weapon.

Unlike the ever-updating computers, the OICW electronics were to be of simple use (so the general infantryman could get easily used to it) and to be used regardless of "age":
Basically the electronics were to be used even after new versions were approved (which would be natural since the trend is to get the best available equipment at any time).

The weapon's "mini computer" itself would be basically a set of tools to make the weapon more "all round":

  • various sighting capabilities (night vision/thermal)
  • laser rangefinder
  • computer-assisted sighting system (for both rifle and airburst launcher)
  • integral scope (with various zoom capabilities / rifle and airburst settings)


Eventually, it would be updated over time (after being used on the battlefield, to fill specific requirements and to use the latest technology).

ses juan wrote:
this paper stated that the conventional small arms already reached its technological peak, and the only way to increase the hit probability in the small arms is to introduce a weapon that will fire explosive and fragmentation warheads.
Hence the M203 and XM302. I will admit, fusing the sights is a good idea, and the airburst is cool too.

The M320 will soon start to replace the venerable M203 in the US Military and with it many new improvements.



However, an airburst weapon requires a computerized firing unit (to allow the soldier to set the detonation distance as well as to calculate the round trajectory and other factors).

The XM25 Airburst Weapon is one of the sub weapon systems which was born from the OICW program:



ses juan wrote:
snake wrote:If I were to choose my rifle, I would definitely pick the G36, an exceptional assault rifle and the "successor" of the G3.
That would make sence. It is fielded by the German military who strive for the best weapons they can make.

Other than the Bundeswehr, the G36 is being currently heavily fielded throughout Europe and also as a special forces rifle for countless Special Forces Groups and Special Para-Military Forces in the world (Counter-Terrorism forces, Special Law Enforcement SWAT Teams, etc).

James100 wrote:
snake wrote:If I were to choose my rifle, I would definitely pick the G36, an exceptional assault rifle and the "successor" of the G3.
_G36 ; For Now It's the Best Of The Best, Being Reliable, Balanced, Cost-Friendly And Comes With Tons Of variants

Indeed, the G36 is a perfect synonym of a modern assault rifle, plus it's price is also incredibly accessible (from a military perspective of course) and the weapon itself is very simple, making it an outstanding Service Rifle.

James100 wrote:_XM8 In The Best Ones Has Same Characteristics Of The G36 In Better Aspects (It Was Based On It)

My favorite XM8 additions are the sliding stock and the advanced red dot sight (which haves an integral IR laser), the rest is basically a G36 (specially the internal components, I think the magazine is also the same), the main differences per se is the weapon design and external structure.
A G36 can easily host such attachments as well (the G36 standard side-folding stock is surprisingly easy to swap for example).

One of the cons of the advanced XM8 red dot sight was the cost (it added a significant extra monetary cost per weapon), the "solution" could be a top Picatinny rail/carrying handle with integral iron sights like many G36 variants use (extra optics could be easily attached by the soldier at will).

_________________
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -- George Patton
avatar
Snake
General of the Army [Administrator]
General of the Army [Administrator]

Posts : 5707
Join date : 2008-02-11
Location : Portugal

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  James100 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:37 am

The aim of programs such as the MR-C is to create a next generation rifle to equip the US Military's Future Force Warriors (FFW's).

May I Add That The FFW Program May Be Canceled With The FCS Program
If FCS Doesn't Make Any Progress Other Than the NLOS-C, The Congress Will Cancel It And Bring It Normal Tech And Tactics
avatar
James100
General [Moderator]
General [Moderator]

Posts : 1294
Join date : 2008-11-09
Age : 37

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  AgustaBE on Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:58 am

Snake wrote:
James100 wrote:
ses juan wrote:I would not want the OICW in combat. It may have all i need but it is probably heavy. And, when it jams, it looks like its gona be a b@#$h to take apart. like i said, it needs to be simple enough to take on our enemy's diversity of weapons. That doesn't look all that simple. with my imaginary gun, there can be a rail system for it to be adabted to the changing battle field.

The OICW Was Supposed To Be An All In One Rifle... But It Was Too Bulky And Huge! If They Don't Reconsider To Bottle It Up And Lighten It A Bit, It Will Never Ever Have A Chance

Indeed, the weight and size were primary concerns (some of the prototypes were quite bulky and less than ideal for close range encounters, the kind of which is recurring in modern scenarios).
Some of the more compact prototypes, however, looked quite interesting and promising:





One interesting weapon program which I should mention is the Modular Rifle - Caseless (MR-C), a conceptual assault rifle program to create a bullpup mock-up assault rifle which would use caseless ammo (similar to the HK G11).



The aim of programs such as the MR-C is to create a next generation rifle to equip the US Military's Future Force Warriors (FFW's).

ses juan wrote:
The SAMP stated that such weapons must utilize the latest developments in computers and visual technologies.
Making it obsolete today. The computer is ALWAYS evolving you can never get the best technology. We would see more and more military projects open today to find the best technology for this weapon.

Unlike the ever-updating computers, the OICW electronics were to be of simple use (so the general infantryman could get easily used to it) and to be used regardless of "age":
Basically the electronics were to be used even after new versions were approved (which would be natural since the trend is to get the best available equipment at any time).

The weapon's "mini computer" itself would be basically a set of tools to make the weapon more "all round":

  • various sighting capabilities (night vision/thermal)
  • laser rangefinder
  • computer-assisted sighting system (for both rifle and airburst launcher)
  • integral scope (with various zoom capabilities / rifle and airburst settings)


Eventually, it would be updated over time (after being used on the battlefield, to fill specific requirements and to use the latest technology).

ses juan wrote:
this paper stated that the conventional small arms already reached its technological peak, and the only way to increase the hit probability in the small arms is to introduce a weapon that will fire explosive and fragmentation warheads.
Hence the M203 and XM302. I will admit, fusing the sights is a good idea, and the airburst is cool too.

The M320 will soon start to replace the venerable M203 in the US Military and with it many new improvements.



However, an airburst weapon requires a computerized firing unit (to allow the soldier to set the detonation distance as well as to calculate the round trajectory and other factors).

The XM25 Airburst Weapon is one of the sub weapon systems which was born from the OICW program:



ses juan wrote:
snake wrote:If I were to choose my rifle, I would definitely pick the G36, an exceptional assault rifle and the "successor" of the G3.
That would make sence. It is fielded by the German military who strive for the best weapons they can make.

Other than the Bundeswehr, the G36 is being currently heavily fielded throughout Europe and also as a special forces rifle for countless Special Forces Groups and Special Para-Military Forces in the world (Counter-Terrorism forces, Special Law Enforcement SWAT Teams, etc).

James100 wrote:
snake wrote:If I were to choose my rifle, I would definitely pick the G36, an exceptional assault rifle and the "successor" of the G3.
_G36 ; For Now It's the Best Of The Best, Being Reliable, Balanced, Cost-Friendly And Comes With Tons Of variants

Indeed, the G36 is a perfect synonym of a modern assault rifle, plus it's price is also incredibly accessible (from a military perspective of course) and the weapon itself is very simple, making it an outstanding Service Rifle.

James100 wrote:_XM8 In The Best Ones Has Same Characteristics Of The G36 In Better Aspects (It Was Based On It)

My favorite XM8 additions are the sliding stock and the advanced red dot sight (which haves an integral IR laser), the rest is basically a G36 (specially the internal components, I think the magazine is also the same), the main differences per se is the weapon design and external structure.
A G36 can easily host such attachments as well (the G36 standard side-folding stock is surprisingly easy to swap for example).

One of the cons of the advanced XM8 red dot sight was the cost (it added a significant extra monetary cost per weapon), the "solution" could be a top Picatinny rail/carrying handle with integral iron sights like many G36 variants use (extra optics could be easily attached by the soldier at will).

are all of these included in TAOW? cheers cheers cheers

_________________
"I think war is a dangerous place." - George W. Bush
avatar
AgustaBE
2nd Lieutenant
2nd Lieutenant

Posts : 317
Join date : 2008-11-15
Age : 24
Location : Belgium

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  James100 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:02 am

@F-16


The G-36, XM-8, And AKs Are Included Others Not Razz
avatar
James100
General [Moderator]
General [Moderator]

Posts : 1294
Join date : 2008-11-09
Age : 37

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  ses juan on Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:42 pm

There have guns developed that are well rounded and great guns, but i bet that if you pulled a marine company out of iraq or afghanastan, you would see that they would want atleast most of the things that i feel should be in a gun. I know that if i were the grunt on the ground, i would want those characteristics in my gun.
avatar
ses juan
Corporal
Corporal

Posts : 11
Join date : 2009-05-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  Jarhead on Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:17 am

Here is a recent post of someone looking to make infantry walk realistically in his mod. Don't know if anyone form here could help or not. The mod focuses mainly on US Spec Ops.

http://www.deezire.net/forums/generals-zero-hour-editing/9135-mod-under-construction.html
avatar
Jarhead
1st Lieutenant
1st Lieutenant

Posts : 408
Join date : 2008-12-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  Snake on Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:20 pm

Jarhead wrote:Here is a recent post of someone looking to make infantry walk realistically in his mod. Don't know if anyone form here could help or not. The mod focuses mainly on US Spec Ops.

http://www.deezire.net/forums/generals-zero-hour-editing/9135-mod-under-construction.html

Hmm, making infantry walk realistically is, indeed, a complicated task, the quality of the specific animations is vital.

_________________
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -- George Patton
avatar
Snake
General of the Army [Administrator]
General of the Army [Administrator]

Posts : 5707
Join date : 2008-02-11
Location : Portugal

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Infantry man's best friend

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum